I’ve got to admit, I’m very hesitant to write this post.
Here’s why: I have friends and relatives who are gay. I care about them very much and would never want them to see this post as a personal attack on them. I want them to know my affection for them. I also know that the issue of sexuality is very important to them, as it is to all people. I never want to make flippant or derogatory statements about the issue of homosexuality.
The issue of homosexuality and Christianity is becoming more and more important. As the topic of homosexuality is getting more air time on the news, in music, and in movies, Christians seem to be responding in a couple of different ways. Some Christians, like the folks from Westboro Baptist Church, say that God hates homosexuals. They’re completely wrong, and they do damage to the name of Jesus. I think that most Christians know that.
On the other hand, a growing number of Christians are coming out and saying that the Bible does not condemn loving, Christ-centered, homosexual relationships.
I think that this second question is one of incredible importance. Why? Because ultimately, heaven and hell are at stake in this debate. In Romans 1:26-27, Paul says:
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
I plan on taking a closer look at this passage and a few others in future posts, but for now I just want to highlight what’s at stake. If these verses condemn all homosexual behavior, then every person who engages in homosexual behavior will experience the wrath of God for their sins. In other words, if we get this wrong and say that homosexuality is okay, we could end up pushing people toward hell.
But, if these verses (and similar ones) are only talking about a very specific behavior and not all homosexual behavior, then we are doing homosexuals a terrible disservice by telling them that homosexuality is wrong. Man, I want to get this right.
This matters very much to me. I care a lot about my friends who are gay. I want them to experience all the joy that comes through knowing Jesus Christ and obeying him. I want them to know the redemption that I’ve experienced. If homosexuality is wrong, then I need to tell them. I would be unloving if I didn’t. If it’s not wrong, well, then a bunch of us are making a big mistake. We need to get this right.
If we’re indifferent on this issue, it could result in people going to hell. Or it could result in us actually harming the faith of those who are gay. In the next couple of weeks I’ll write more on this. For now, this is where the conversation starts.
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NOTE: For the record, I do believe that homosexuality in all forms is wrong. But if you’re gay, please don’t let that fact cause you to tune out of this discussion. In fact, I want to hear your voice. Thanks.
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{ 45 comments… read them below or add one }
Brave post…glad you are tackling this difficult issue with discernment and care
Thanks Josh. I hope to answer the question you asked on the earlier post.
Stephen,
I love the way you've opened this! As executive director of The Gay Christian Network, I get to hear people talk about this subject all day, every day, and I rarely hear people approach it with the kind of gentle nuance you've demonstrated here. Kudos! I hope to continue participating in the conversation!
Hi Justin. Thanks for commenting. I'm actually reading your article as we speak. Thanks for adding your voice!
This very issue was on my heart this morning! How timely that you’re addressing it. I also believe homosexuality in all forms is wrong, but what is burdensome to me is the self-righteousness that often accompanies that statement (like from the Westboro Baptist Church). Can we accurately address homosexuality as being wrong without also saying that even lusting over a woman in our minds is wrong? Who am I to cast a stone unless I throw it at myself first? That is not to say sin should be accepted and practiced, but the playing field does not seem level as it ought to be. ALL of humanity, gay and straight, are in need of the gospel. From the cross, I think we can discuss the issue with grace and truth. You are indeed handling this gently, Stephen!
Thanks for addressing this Stephen, this is an extremely important issue that I would argue is pushing literally millions of people away from the Church. Personally, my family and I currently do not have a church home because of this issue – I have been to multiple Churches in the last few years and in each case I have had gay friends ask if they could come with me to church – in each Church, I had to say it was not a good idea and talked to multiple pastors about this issue. Ultimately, we are left without a Church home and we are not the only ones. Because of this problem, we have been meeting with many others that are suffering from this same issue and have met dozens of wonderful Christians in the local area that do not have a home Church because of this issue. While I will go deeper into this issue in another comment, I must ask these Churches, did Jesus have guards asking people at the back of crowds asking if there were prostitutes there, or gamblers, etc. No, they welcomed the masses, which the Church institution as a whole is not very good at nowadays.
Your concern for homosexual Christians is commendable Jeff D. I do think we need to be a little careful though to avoid red herring arguments here. The issue of whether or not some or many homosexual Christians may be turned-off by the Church today isn't the lens we should use to interpret scripture. Neither does it follow necessarily that the slavery or women's rights issues in the Church definitively mean we're also incorrect about homosexuality; that should certainly give us caution here but one is not necessarily related to the other.
Rather, I think what Stephen is initially and simply trying to do is to examine whether or not (Biblically) homosexual activity is sinful and applicable to us Christians yet today, irregardless of our culture and time. Or, does the Bible speak only to a specific type of homosexual activity (e.g., related to temple prostitution) that is no longer culturally relevant to us Christians today? We first need to establish the answer to this question. Then we can discuss what the Church's loving reaction should be (either an acceptance and blessing of homosexual activity — or a stance that the activity is sinful, while lovingly calling and helping those involved in the sin to avoid it, as the Church should do with any other activity it understands to be sinful).
Also, we need to be cautious how we use Jesus as an example here. While Jesus as portrayed in the four gospels certainly demonstrate that sinners flocked to him and that he embraced them, a careful reading also reveals that he didn't do this by simply ignoring people's sins. Rather, he perhaps had some of the hardest words to say about sin (e.g., even lusting after some one is sinful?) and sin's consequences (e.g., he spoke plainly about hell). And he we have examples of him frequently telling people he forgave them of their sins, and then commanded them to "sin no more." So, if Jesus didn't simply brush-off sin as not sinful, but rather was actually pretty straight forward and even extreme on his stance of sin, than there must have been some other reason sinners were so attracted to him. Perhaps that's what we need to focus on and figure out within the Church.
So are you trying to say that homosexuality is an unforgivable sin? Since those who have been saved in Christ aren't able to stop sinning, it seems odd to say that one sin would send them to hell despite having been saved. What I was taught at CLS and CLC was that sin has no degree, and the only "unforgivable" sin is to actively turn your back on God and denounce your faith. So if someone is a genuinely saved Christian who happens to be gay, would they really be going to hell because of that?
Hey Kevin,
I think that there is a little confusion here. I don't think that homosexuality is an unforgiveable sin. Not at all! But, what scripture seems to indicate is that homosexuality is sin, and that those who continue to willfully practice it without repentance will be condemned. This would not be the case just with homosexuality, but with any sin. Does that make sense?
yeah, this makes sense, but what I guess I really mean to ask is if you think this is a major or minor doctrine- major meaning it could define whether or not you're a christian, vs minor where two parties have to agree to disagree.
i also want to make sure you know i'm not trying to attack with my comments- just seeking clarification! i think it's great that you're willing to talk about a topic that many people avoid at all costs.
Wow, this is wonderful. Sorry if I sound corrective, but I think what Mr. Altrogge's getting at is this: Homosexuality appears to be a sin. I think the more important doctrine, if you will, is not how homosexuality effects or relationship with God–rather, how sin effects our relationship with Him. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I seem to have noticed that 'being gay' is so much more of a life style that we are often choosing to live in the sin. As the verse states, men "gave up natural relations … committing shameless acts…" This seems to be the sin: choosing to live that way. It's not the actual attraction that may be felt, but what choices are made to follow the attraction. If we treat homosexuality like a different sin, for expample stealing, I think it clarifies things a little. You might *really* want that laptop that you see sitting on that cafe table, all alone, but the sin starts if you choose to steal it.
I believe that it's not a sin to be attracted to something until we let it consume us. If we are going to lust over a person, be they male or female, we are sinning. If we choose to commit adultery (even if it's just in our minds), regardless of gender, we are sinning. The sin is living for the fleshly desires, not just having them.
If it were a sin to be gay [in the since that you were attracted to men] but you never let your flesh make your choices for you, then the same would apply to every desire of our heart. Being gay, however, usually involves more than just men being attracted to other men. Choosing to follow in that lifestyle, I think , is where homosexuality becomes the sin.
Sorry for typing so much! Sometimes I have a really hard time communicating clearly.
As far as whether or not committed homosexual couples should be accepted into Churches, I would argue this is a cultural issue that a few decades from now Churches will be embarrassed that this was even an issue, in the same way that the vast majority of Churches in America fought to keep slavery, fought against women's rights, fought against interracial marriage, and fought against civil rights, then ultimately relented and now hardly ever admit that they were on the wrong side on those issues for decades. Looking into the history of the institutional Church (the vast majority of churches) in America, we see a long line of being on the wrong side of civil rights issues until decades after the rest of society realized they were wrong. In each of these cases, I would argue that the Church institutionalized sin (by denying justice) based on fear of people different themselves and justified it through scripture based on cultural norms, not the Word of God. For instance, the Bible clearly justifies slavery, clearly denies rights to women, clearly denies rights to people of different races, yet we no longer follow those scriptures because they are no longer socially applicable – yet, for homosexuality, people insist that those scriptures are still valid – I argue because of fear and sin.
Hey Jeff,
Thanks for bringing this up. First of all, it stinks that you don't have a church home. Second, because of the long history of social injustice in our country, I think we need to be extra careful when we talk about this issue. I've been reading about the church and slavery recently, and it's sad that the church justified slavery.
I think we need to be careful though, that we also don't immediately jump to one side or another simply because of the long history of injustice. We need to carefully examine all the biblical passages in question.
I look forward to hearing you talk more about this.
Thanks Stephen, I would also recommend looking into how the Institutional Church fought against women's rights, I often teach a sermon that was regularly given around the country about 100 years ago entitled "Ought Women Learn the Alphabet?" – the fear of women's rights was so huge in the Church that it was regularly being questioned whether women should even learn the alphabet. And there are many passages from the Bible used to justify this – which is why we need to accept that many of the societies described in the Bible were pretty awful to women – and much of that seeped into scripture, much of which we no longer follow because we realize women should be treated equally. A few examples:
“Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (I Timothy 2:11-14)
“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
“Give me any plague, but the plague of the heart: and any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman.” (Eccles. 25:13)
“Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die.” (Eccles. 25:22)
“For from garments cometh a moth, and from women wickedness. Better is the churlishness of a man than a courteous woman, a woman, I say, which bringeth shame and reproach.” (Eccles. 42:13-14)
And many, many more that we no longer follow because we realize that we do not want to follow the example of how these societies treated women. We ignore all of these scriptures on the subjection of women and on slavery, yet we do not ignore those on homosexuality.
I should have been a little more careful before I posted this, I believe the later chapters of Ecc, quoted above are from a different version of the Bible than we normally use, but there are plenty of other verses on women's rights that we no longer follow like the first two listed. (Shows me for not doing the leg work of finding the verses myself here).
What version do those chapters exist in?
Slavery and women's rights are a social issue…not a sin. Homosexuality is a sin in the Bible, big difference. Sins in the Bible were sins then and still sins now. Sins don't change…..If God liked homosexuality would he have blown up 2 cities that it was rampant in? Also looka t 1 Corinth. Ch 6 v. 9 & 10 at a list of who will not go to heaven
Sadly, I work with at least 200 students each year and I cannot even count how many I talk to that say they have left their Church over this issue. It is amazing how many times I hear the same comment (something along the lines): how can I keep going to a Church that does not show the love of Christ to my friends / relatives that are LGBT?
Although not quite the central aim of your post, I think a great voice in this discussion is Wesley Hill's book, "Washed and Waiting." (Important note: he uses the phrase "gay Christian" in his book as shorthand for "Christian struggling with same-sex attraction," which can be controversial.)
Within the Christian culture, there tends to be 2 camps: those who say the Bible does not condemn homosexuality as sin, and therefore Christianity and homosexuality are perfectly compatible; and those who believe that when you become a Christian, you will be cured of homosexuality. Pushed to the front are those who have come out of the homosexual lifestyle, have had their desires change, and are now heterosexual and oftentimes married with children. This is wonderful and does sometimes happen.
I like where you are going with this. Looking forward to reading the future posts.
The voice that is often missed, though, is that of the Scripturally faithful, celibate Christian, who though they pray for and believe for change, still consistently struggle with attraction only to the same sex. They battle against sin in the trenches of real life, day-in and day-out, just as other Christians may battle against alcoholism, drug addictions, and eating disorders. Hill gives a very vulnerable glimpse into this easily overlooked population.
I love this, Bethany! If someone finds himself/herself in this situation, chooses to remain celibate because of unhealthy attraction, they should be EMBRACED by the church, loved and made to feel they are a part of us. What an honorable choice that is!
Thank you, Stephen for taking the initiative. There are dear people in my life who are (and might be) gay, and I grieve for them. I don't know how to appropriately reach out to them, and look forward to your future articles on the subject in general.
On the subject of homosexuality even Christians seem to make the mistake of separating it from a gospel issue.
As far as my personal experience I find that Christians do not necessarily make the connection that God died for all except for homosexuals; rather, because homosexuals parade their sin as a "special" type of sin, then Christians trip over this and they either excuse it or run from it.
Furthermore, according to Romans 1 homosexuality is an effect or inevitable consequence of worshiping creation or being pagan, that is. The pragmatic expression of paganism (i.e. worshiping creation in any form or one-ism) is homosexuality while heterosexuality is the pragmatic expression of a unique monotheistic God and His creation being separate from Him (two-ism). Therefore, when homosexuality is irrationally made a secular issue (as if being secular is separate from being pagan, when Biblically they are the same thing) and not a pagan issue some are able to realize this is wrong, but because they do not understand the gospel enough they still trip over it.
See, if you view your sin as "special" or “different” then you divorce yourself from receiving and entering into the gospel and grace of Jesus Christ. It’s just that simple. The bible does not say Jesus died for "special sin" or “different sin”, but rather just "sin." That’s it! A homosexual must see themselves as a sinner, and thus, if Jesus Christ died for sins then Jesus can save them, because what they do is sin. At a place and definite time, Jesus died for “sin” and if what you are and what you do is “sin” then you qualify for redemption and forgiveness, but if what you are and do is not plain-old “sin” then there is no hope for you in this world or the one to come! Such a case is hopeless!
What I see ends up happening, due to a lack of a understanding of the gospel—are that Christians at least can sniff out that homosexuals trying to make their sin special is not good—but are clueless to know what to do about it. As with most things, a better understanding of the Person of Jesus Christ and of His death and resurrection will solve such issues.
According to Revelation 21:8, even your basic coward has qualified themselves to burn in hell-fire and rot for all eternity. See, there is nothing special at all about going to hell, for many will be there! Join the club. Yet, narrow is the way that leads to Christ in heaven and few find it, thus, by definition making believers the true exceptional and special people!
One aspect about counseling is the tough love of helping a person to see their sin is not a special sin, but a sin, and therefore, a sin that Jesus is able to forgive, heal and redeem. This does not mean we minimize the particular suffering and anguish a person has been in or is going through. I will not go into how to show gentle love to a person who is hurting, for much of this is self-explanatory, but just emphasize that we must give deeds and truth that demonstrate we have indeed recognized their pain. But, it is the very reason that they are suffering that we desire they press into the gospel so that their suffering and sin may be forgiven, healed and redeemed for heavenly purposes. This pressing into the gospel is coming to the place of seeing sin and then the marvelous cross of Jesus Christ that was for sin, and therefore, forgives, heals and redeems all sin!
No reply needed here, but do appreciate your gentle spirit. I have been on both ends of this debate. That is to say, I at one time aggressively denounced the gay life style–while hypocritically allowing my lust for porn to go relatively unchecked as a Christian….For some time I truly questioned my "Christian walk".
I have wrestled with this stuff for 20+ years, and only this past year I really feel like The sin-apple dropped from the tree..I had a few set backs but they honestly could be counted on two hands and that was big for me personally after going without online porn for 6 months and after a few months of running right into it, bouncing back with The Lord and walking in repentance.
That did two things for me. One is that I have lot more grace toward those that are battling sin–its not pleasant, but its required I believe. Secondly, is that it has helped me to be much more at ease with all people, but much more trusting in Gods plan of sanctifying me personally–not self-righteously. So I hope that you will be encouraged, you can be changed just the same.
I personally would encourage anyone in any stronghold/sin/addictive behavior, to take a serious look at the scripture that is posted above. Its one of several that calls homosexuality sin along with many others, and many other sins. I prefer to take God's word in His most plain expression, as opposed to…well, making it fit your life-style. I have heard the other arguments, frankly I am not convinced.
Christ can get us through even if it is difficult, and imperfectly done on our part. Not here to offend, but to stand up for what I think is the plain sense understanding-which in my mind is standing up for what our Father says is right and wrong. So I tend to be very passionate about such things.
Would gladly meet anyone who disagrees with my view for some coffee and discuss the matter in a civil manner, and please feel free to show me where I am wrong–I could be. I enjoy discussion, especially Christian.
Their just seems to be so much back-peddling anymore with believers about what the Bible says, I sometimes think I would just prefer they would either write their own book and call it something else. I do get frustrated when believers start to jump into to the "Greek Escape hatches" to make a verse mean something it clearly does not–but there are good ways to solve that.
Ok..nuff said. I wish you all well. Enjoy Gods precious Word. Getting ready for GOP debate.
A friend of mine just wrote this on Facebook and I think it fits well in our discussion:
“I came out as gay one year ago. Though it’s proven to be a difficult year in many ways, I am glad that God created me in the way He did. I’m gay and I love Jesus as much as I ever have. Truth does set you free.”
She lived her whole life in the closet and has never felt more free and never loved Jesus as much as she does now, yet the majority of American churches would not even let her worship with them.
First and foremost God hates the sin but loves the sinner. As for churches rejecting "gays" to come to a church goes against all reasoning that the church is for sinners for them to see the truth and the light. All of the discusions on this blog, only a few have stated what is writen in the bible. Lev.18 v22, Deut.23 v17/18,teaches that homosexuality is wrong in Gods eyes, 1 Corth. ch6 v9/10 list types pf sinners that will not inherit the kingdom of God, which homosexuality is named. To keep this short there are many others verses thoughout the bible that condems the act. One big thing people forget is that if God thought homosexuality was ok, why did he blow up to sinful cites? Having slaves and women treated as second class was not a sin, and those two items have changed throughout time. Homosexuality is a sin just as murder, or stealing, those where wrong then and they are still wrong now._
God wants you and the church to love the sinner and teach them what God commands of us to do to be Christians. There was things I did before I became a Christian that was wrong, but once I found out what the Bible sez is right and wrong, I don't do those bad things anymore. As I grow each day as a Christian reading my bible and going to church, the more I learn what is right and wrong.
Brother, you are brave. I look forward to seeing where you go in the coming posts. I pray God would give you grace and give grace to those who read your blog.
Thanks for bringing this up. It's a tough topic but your gentleness and Gospel-centeredness are wonderful.
Sinners feel free when they come out of the closet because by suppressing the truth of God and His laws on their conscience they feel free from the guilt: this is the freedom of the hypocrite. Now, the freedom of a Christian is that of confessing one's vile sin of lying, perversions and murder knowing Jesus died for the penalty of it, and whose death purchased the holy Spirit to empower them to put to death sin: “for those who live according to the flesh will die, but those who by the power of the Spirit put to death the deeds of the power will live: for as many as are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.”
“Since we condemn every arrangement (man and woman on flesh) that does not reflect the image of God and that does not honor the ”mystery of Christ”, and since these are among the reasons that we oppose, this means that those who practice or endorse homosexuality do not cross us only on a narrow issue, but their stance represents a wholesale rejection of the Christian faith, even its very essence. And this must mean that they can have no part in salvation. Or, as the apostle writes, "Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them" (1:32). For this reason, the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against these wicked men and women (1:18).” Vincent Cheung
God hates and His wrath abides on all unrepentant sinners. But His grace and mercy and heaven and refreshing is for the repentant. Acts 3:19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.” But, the phrase “homosexual Christian” betrays that such an individual is “repentant” and has “turned” from their sin in order to have their sins wiped away.
Imagine I or someone came to our church and said I am a Christian rapist or Christian child-molester or a Christian liar or a Christian adulterer or fornicator, or a Christian gossiper: but not only said this but encouraged other Christian adulterers to come out of their closet in your church and be free from feeling guilty of their Christian lying, Christian raping, Christian gossiping and Christian adultery. Hearing such a thing sounds so moronic I know, but this is the argument of a Christian-homosexual. It is a stupidest thing I have ever heard; it just might be more stupid than the argument of God not existing because of evil. What! You think I am too harsh, yet if you think Jesus would have been anything but four times harsher than I have been then you have deceived yourself into a old-wives fairytales. For Jesus calls the man who suppressed the truth of God’s wrath against his Christian-gluttony and Christian-covetousness and Christian-laziness as a “moron” in Luke 12:20!
It is one thing to say I am a repentant Christian whose struggles with (hmmm.. lets pick another hot topic) pornography and I confess this in repentance, that it is evil and gross to God and then also confess too my church elders and seek accountability to help me to put to death the deeds of my sinful desires. It is quite another thing to for me to come out of the closet and announce that I “do not repent” of my fornication (pornography) and then encourage other brothers in my church to actually look at pornography and participate in my fornication. In such a case I should be kicked out by my elders ship and not allowed in until I repent and turn from my sin. What? You think I am being too harsh? Yet this is exactly what we are told in the scriptures. 1 Corinthians 5:11 “But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner — not even to eat with such a person.”
Here scripture commands us to eat with the world so that we might live our lives and have the opportunity to tell them that they are sinners under God’s wrath, yet, God has sent His Son to save sinners so that they might become His beloved children rather than stay children of wrath that they are now.
But if a person says they are a Christian and they are also unrepentantly “immoral” (a.k.a Christian-homosexual or Christian-fornicator, Christian-lair) we are commanded to kick them out and not eat with them until they repent. But since many do not obey scripture what some ends up happening is that some kick out the Christian and keep the immoral in, caressing their sins rather than preaching repentance and grace found in Christ’s finished work.
It is precisely because Jesus wants to save them from that "sin" (whatever it may be), which they “love so much”, that the gospel is a hateful offense! See, they love their sinful disposition of being headstrong or stealing or gossiping or homosexuality and they love it so much they are not willing to give it up for Jesus Christ. These are the same people in our churches today. They are like the rich young man, except for one point, they not like the young man, only walk away sorrowful inwardly, but outwardly they act as if everything is ok with themselves and Jesus. But all is not ok with Jesus and how He feels about this person. See, this person will call out another sinner, like a homosexual, for trying to excuse their sin, because they are wired a certain way, whether physically, socially (etc…) but will all the while themselves—like the rich young man—have never given up their love affair with the riches of their headstrong disposition. But according to Jesus unless you are willing to trade it in to follow Him then such a person has set their aim far, far to high if they except eternal life and heaven; rather, such a person because their true aim was for their sin, and since all sin is aimed for Hell, will find they have inherited eternal death.
Jesus did not come to affirm and caress our sins as a lover, but as a mighty Savior—who having that great Hammer of Thor in His left and swinging that heavy cross like the mighty Foe-Hammer in His right—has come to crush sins power in our lives, ridding us form it forever! Titus 2:11-12, “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.” If we love a liar, or gossip, or homosexual, or coward, or thief and our loving them does not lead them the type of grace of God that leads them to “deny” their gossiping, stealing, homosexuality (etc) then we, by Biblical definition have not “loved” them, but actually have “hated” them, for what can a man give God in exchange for their soul? Jesus called the man whose soul was acquired of him that night a “moron” because to lose your soul means game over for all eternity, and thus, the king of fools.
I would recommend an article by my friend, Vincent Cheung – “Homosexuality and the mystery of Christ:
http://www.vincentcheung.com/2011/10/06/homosexua...
Awesome
Stephen, I highly respect you! You are a gift! I will be praying for you as you share your thoughts on this very important topic. Thank you for taking a step of faith! I, too, have gay friends and really look forward to learning more about God's word in relation to this. Thank you!
Thank you for writing about this. I know how hard it is, as I'm trying to think through and write on the same subject. Yesterday on "National Coming Out Day" a good friend of mine announced that she is a lesbian. It's hard to give a gracious reply that doesn't ignore scripture. I'm interested to read your upcoming posts on this subject.
In your study, consider that "wrath of God" may not refer to "hell." Rene Lopez has written a great article on "The Wrath of God" which deserves consideration.
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2002ii/lopez.pd...
Well, Stephen, you have opened the proverbial "can of worms," haven't you? I do so appreciate your manner in this opening blog. Thank you for your gentleness. Thank you for your genuine concern and love for others. I will be praying for you throughout this series of discussion, as well as for the readers and those who choose to respond. It is my hope and prayer that we will all be able to respond in the gentleness and love of Christ, just as you have done here. I also pray that we all will be able to stay focused on the issue at hand without running off on tangeant threads. I will definitely be following this discussion. I look forward to learning how to deal with my friends and relatives who find themselves in this predicament.
I can still remember when gay meant happy.
Homosexual behavior is condemned in the Bible and a sin. So is it a little sin or a big SIN? Sin is sin. I don't stop loving the sinner but I can hate the sin. Our society and the homosexual community are working overtime to make homosexuality "normal." Legitimizing an immoral behavior still does not make it acceptable in God's eyes.
By the way, I also have friends who are homosexuals but they do not flaunt it in my face. I don't condone their behavior, nor do I condemn them, but try to show the love of Christ in my relationship with them.
Thank you for writing about this! I recently was given your book, The Greener Grass Conspiracy. It is wonderful to read your works. God has blessed you dearly and others through you.
The most animosity in regards to this issue seems to come up in regards to marriage. I think that there is a huge social sin that most Americans buy into that is triggering this animosity – that we have let Caesar (the government) take control of our marriage covenant. Our marriage covenant is supposed to be like Christ loved the Church, instead, we have put Caesar in the middle and made it Christ, the Church and Caesar, which has led to enormous amounts of anger and animosity.
For instance, because Caesar is in charge of marriage, Caesar has decided to give me approximately 180 rights and privileges that my LGBT brothers and sisters cannot have. Just one example – I will get between 100,000 and 200,000 in tax breaks over the course of my lifetime that my LGBT friends will not get. And that is just one example – I have a close friend that was with his partner for 35 years and was not allowed in the hospital room as his partner died. These are horrific social injustices that only occur because we have allowed Caesar to control marriage in our society.
For marriage to go back to the covenant that it is meant to be, we need to remove Caesar from it, and return it to being a private covenant. Then my LGBT brethren can have all the rights I have, the social sin of letting Caesar into our covenant will be removed, and there will be a lot less animosity.
The Bible clearly states that marriage is between a man and a woman. Homosexuality is a sin in the Bible.
Ray – i am curious if you read what I wrote? I was not arguing for Gay marriage. My point is that the government should not be involved in marriage at all. For most of history, it was a private covenant, not a government sponsored one. I think that Caesar (the government) is getting in between what is supposed to be a covenant between Christ and the Church. I don't like Caesar's hands on any marriage – it is one of the most beautiful, important covenants that we have, yet we hand it over to Caesar?
Yes, I agree with what your last post about gov't should stay out of marriage. I'm confused about your LGBT friends having marriage rights. Government or no gov't marriage was created by God.